‘What Happens Next?’: Should Comedy Cross Lines?

Susan Carland:

Hello, and welcome to our second and final look at the future of comedy. On this episode, our comedians give us an insight into how they approach their own brand of comedy. And we find out that the future of comedy might not be as dire as we think. Does comedy merely reflect the society we live in? Here is our final episode on the future of comedy.

Prue Blake is the latest RAW Comedy winner. She also has a PhD. Some people just have everything, don't they? Prue gives us a perspective of someone relatively new to the world of comedy.

Prue Blake:

I think for me, it's just nice to spread some joy, and I think it's increasingly taking on this role of this social commentary, really taking jabs at society. And I think that's part of comedy, but I don't know if that's the overall role that it should take, because you do lose a lot of nuance in a joke. And it is really hard. I know there was something in the paper recently about Tom Ballard's set at the Moosehead benefit, and someone was saying, “I found it really offensive,” and then Tom's going, “But it was satire, like I was purposely going that offensive to satirise what's happening wider in society,” and you're going, “But is that going to get across to everyone?” It's kind of that intent versus perception.

Susan Carland:

Tell us what happened with Tom Ballard. What was his set about, and why did people get offended?

Prue Blake:

His set was about people that vote liberal, and he was really talking about how he thinks they're all frog people and should... I don't know the actual wording of it or something.

Susan Carland:

Right. So something light.

Prue Blake:

Something light, but he said it's a set that works in his show, and he really likes doing it and he's done it multiple places. And there was one woman there, and she goes, “I found it really offensive, but everyone around me was laughing.” And you're going, “Well, that sounds like it was a great joke then.”

Susan Carland:

Right. Yeah, this comes back to what we were talking about, is who do we get to make fun of? Obviously Tom thought, “Clearly, I'm really kicking liberal voters now, but that's okay.” In a way that I'm guessing he wouldn't for, say, Indigenous people.

Prue Blake:

Yes.

Susan Carland:

Why do you think – what is it about the liberal voter that made Tom, and obviously everyone else in the room who laughed, think, “This is okay to laugh at these people.” What's that about?

Prue Blake:

I think this is where it gets to comedy as being subversive in comedy, and being subversive is knocking kind of the people that are typically in power, or the things that are typically accepted and powerful and have lots of benefits. And a liberal party, you're not persecuted generally because you're a liberal voter. Maybe they persecute people sometimes. So it's not picking on something that people are going to be picked on for all the time in their life, day in, day out. It's this bigger thing that people don't normally look at so closely.

Susan Carland:

So when that woman said... I'm guessing she was a liberal voter –

Prue Blake:

Yeah, she never mentioned that, but –

Susan Carland:

Let's assume that she was. Was it wrong of her to be offended?

Prue Blake:

I think you could –

Susan Carland:

Or she could be offended, but it just doesn't matter?

Prue Blake:

I think she can be offended, but it just doesn't matter. And I think as a comedian, you have to accept that sometimes you're going to offend. And sometimes you're going to cross a line. And the best you can do is either say, “That was a joke. I'm sorry that I crossed the line. I'll reflect and try and do better.” Or, “That was a joke, and I'm sorry that it offended you, but I stand by it.” And occasionally that's just collateral damage, part of the game.

Susan Carland:

You said that, while comedy can have a social role, in the end, it's about bringing people joy. It's about making people laugh.

Prue Blake:

Yeah.

Susan Carland:

What do you think the average person at home can do to make sure we see inclusive comedy?

Prue Blake:

I think they have to go watch inclusive comedy. Go watch different people, and not just go and say, “I really love this one act, so I'm only going to see them every year at Comedy Festival,” but go and see someone different. And I think the festival do a really good thing now. Say I wanted to go see a Geraldine Hickey show, which is amazing, during the Comedy Festival, it then says, “This act recommends these other acts.” And you can go see the smaller acts that they might recommend. Go out, not just at festival time, during the year and see lineup shows. And you just never know who you're going to click with, who will speak to you. I think it would be nice to see more Australian comedians building fan bases and kind of being supported.

Susan Carland:

Peter Helliar is one of Australia's favourite comedians, and currently co-hosts the award-winning news and current affairs program The Project on Network 10. Peter Helliar started doing comedy in 1996 (I wasn't even born then), a time when many comedians were straight, white and male. He's seen comedy significantly change over the years.

Peter Helliar:

When I started, I started stand-up comedy in ’96, and the scene was largely white man standing at a microphone in pubs, telling jokes. And to see the change now, where it's so diverse, it continues to grow – diversity continues to grow – and just the different styles of comedy. It's not just people telling jokes on stage, and prop comedy was looked down upon for a time. You brought anything out of your pocket, it's was like, “Oh, here we go. Here's a cheap laugh,” and now people are using all kinds of things, and I'm talking about live comedy that is only adding to the experience.

Susan Carland:

Mm. I imagine, obviously some goods come with that, more different people doing comedy, it's opened up the field, it's given us more to laugh about. Have there been any challenges that have also come with the way comedy has evolved, and what audiences find funny?

Peter Helliar:

No, I really don't understand the comedians who want to freeze time and the old, “Political correctness gone mad, and you can't say anything anymore.” I don't understand that. I would argue, you can say anything you want, more now than ever. All you have to do is go on Twitter. I would argue that too many people are saying too many things, possibly. But I think this whole...

I've always wanted to evolve as a human being. Writing comedy for me is how I check in, really, about how I feel about the world. So I don't have a thinking chair where I sit down and I contemplate the world, you know? When I'm writing comedy, or when I'm thinking about comedy, that's how I'm processing the world and my own village, as far as my family, my home, and my friends, and my workplace, and in the wider world. I think comedy's always just a reflection of what's going on. I think that's always, always been the case, and that doesn't mean people are always tackling the big issues. It can still be about what's happening in that person's house, that they are reflecting the world. And if that works, the audience will connect and recognise something that's also going on in their lives that they can enjoy.

Susan Carland:

What do you think comedy looks like 20 years from now?

Peter Helliar:

I'm loath to think about what comedy thinks about in three months, but 20... Well, I think the biggest thing in the last 20 years has probably been the rising diversity, which has been just amazing, and that'll continue. But the other big game-changer in the last probably 10 years has been the amount of platforms involved. I'm not sure if I said this earlier, but we stand-up comedians, it used to be you weren't a real comedian if you weren't a stand-up. That was a very real thing, even people who are obviously comedians, like Hamish and Andy.

I remember people going, “Well, they're not real comedians.” Hang on. They're bloody hilarious. They just don't necessarily stand on stage. I think they have done that, actually, but they weren't doing it as a regular thing. Of course they're comedians. And that was often a real debate amongst snobbish comedians, stand-ups. I think that's certainly gone away now. And I think maybe there'll be like, so more platforms. It'd be interesting to know what constitutes a comedian. Even now, what constitutes a comedian? You don't have to be a stand-up to be a comedian, we know that. You can work on radio, TV, but you can... is it TikTok? Is a mum with 30 million followers, making people laugh on TikTok? Is she a comedian?

Susan Carland:

Yeah.

Peter Helliar:

You'd argue that she is. She's probably got a bigger audience than most comedians.

Susan Carland:

Yeah.

Nazeem Hussain:

I think there's always been things that you're not supposed to joke about.

Susan Carland:

Here's Nazeem Hussain.

Nazeem Hussain:

I feel like we're probably talking about it a bit more now, and we're hearing from... You can hear from everybody now, whereas I think back in the day, you'd just hear from official reviewers about theatre or comedy. So now we're hearing more criticisms directly, and more thoughts and perspectives. But I feel like comedy has always been useful or relevant on the boundaries of what is acceptable and what is comfortable to talk about. So even if you're talking about safe topics, you're talking about things... Even if it's toilet humour, you're not supposed to talk about that normally, which is why it's funny on stage, when a comedian goes there and makes those sorts of jokes, or you talk about things that you're supposed to keep to yourself in your head, the awkward conversations you have about social interaction.

Like those are things that socially are unacceptable to just disclose to roomfuls of strangers. So I think comedy has always sort of operated on the boundary of what you're supposed to be talking about. So yeah, I just think what is acceptable behaviour in society is changing, but comedy's supposed to operate the same way, around the fringes of what is right and wrong, or what you're supposed to talk about, what you're not supposed to talk about.

But I think the rules around how to perform comedy and how to talk about issues is changing. And when you're a kid, you joke about... You don't think about the rules. Things are funny or things are not funny. You do things to make your friends laugh. You laugh at things that are silly. You don't know what's acceptable or not until someone tells you off. You shouldn't be making fun of that person's face or that person's clothes, or the way that your friends smell, or whatever. You understand that there are rules and sensibilities, and I think that's useful, but that also reveals that there are things like, going back to your first question, that are just inherently kind of funny, but there are consequences that come with that sort of reckless speak.

Susan Carland:

Mm. Do you have anything that you won't joke about?

Nazeem Hussain:

We've spoken about this before. I think that probably earlier on in my comedy career, when I didn't really think it was a career, because it was way more fun when you start out, you know, anything that's initially a hobby. You just, I used to think... I definitely grew up on comedy that had stuff to say more than it didn't, like a lot of African-American comedians spoke truth to power, Chris Rock, and even Dave Chappelle and Bill Hicks. Australian comedians as well, I really loved. They were probably much more sillier, but I think back when I started, I definitely had that idea that you should only punch up, which I think you should definitely still only punch up. But there are things that you should definitely not speak about, because... Whether it's... Well, I probably still think that, let me just rethink what I'm trying to say.

I think things seemed a lot clearer, like just probably like a lot of ideas in your head when you're younger about the topics that you should talk about and you shouldn't talk about. Things that bring people pain. But I think the older I get, the more I understand that, well actually, life is a little bit more complicated. Sometimes it is better for it to be for topics to be spoken about responsibly than not. And also, I do think comedy has a complicated role. Yes, you do have a platform and so you should be responsible, but also when you enter into a comedy room, there is that sort of understanding that the norms of conversation don't really apply here. This is a different space.

You're not supposed to be particularly precise with your words. You are watching someone that is just being the person we're not allowed to be. That is sort of the role of the comedian. So I'm kind of conflicted. If someone is up on a stage with a microphone, yelling at a room full of people, they've got that platform and privilege, and if you're a white man, the way you speak about women, you've just got to understand your privilege. However, at the same time, you are still watching a comedian perform on stage, and you're paying to see someone kind of say things that maybe we hold in the back of our minds, that we're not allowed to talk about or unpack publicly, that we're probably all walking around, thinking about. And isn't that kind of the role of the comedian also, to be that person to take the hits, to be the clown, to be the idiot? So I don't really know where I sit. I'm very easily convinced by any Twitter thread.

Michael Shafar:

Hello. My name is Michael Shafar. I attempt comedy and I enjoy schnitzel.

Susan Carland:

What do you think is the future of comedy?

Michael Shafar:

I think it's going to become... probably more empathetic, and probably more progressive. I think. Just if you look at the trajectory of things, I just think they've got to... I think that we'll arrive at a point where now you can't make fun of these people. Because, as you said, previously people would make sexist jokes or racist jokes, people would laugh. And I think that now we're seeing that with the transgender community, like it's becoming more and more awful to make jokes at their expense.

And I think down the track, we'll see other groups, that we will have empathy for other groups we previously did not have empathy for. My theory is that the elderly will become a group that you're not allowed to make fun of in comedy anymore, because I think that they are a minority, a very disempowered – are they a minority? I don't know, technically, but they're definitely a disempowered group of people who are often neglected. And yet, interestingly enough, you can still make fun of them. And I think – I'm not saying you should, but you can and people will laugh, because for whatever reason, people in the crowd do not have the empathy for their experience as they do for other people in society. So I think it will be... That's my guess, that maybe like 10 years from now, if you do a joke that makes fun of elderly people, you might not be able to get away with it anymore. And I think that's fine.

Susan Carland:

It sounds like the pool of people we're allowed to make fun of, or that it's been socially acceptable to make fun of, has shrunk – is shrinking over time. You go back 30 years, if you go back and watch like Eddie Murphy Raw now, like, oh my God –

Michael Shafar:

Whoa.

Susan Carland:

At the time –

Michael Shafar:

I think I watched the first five minutes of that, and I was like, “I'll have to stop.”

Susan Carland:

I remember watching it like 25 years ago. I thought it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen. I think if I watched it now, it would... Yeah, I think you're right. You get through five minutes of it. And even before him, the stuff, the people that we could laugh at, the categories of people, types of people could laugh at. It was pretty much everyone. It's shrinking and shrinking, because of, as you said, we just go, “Actually, that's not okay. That's just a crappy thing to do.” And it sounds like there'll be fewer and fewer people in the future. Does that worry you as a comedian, that there's not going to be a lot you can joke about?

Michael Shafar:

Not really, actually. I mean, because I don't –

Susan Carland:

Apart from politicians, who will there be?

Michael Shafar:

I think you can make fun of... I think what happens is, as some groups become more like, “You shouldn't make fun of those groups,” then other people will present themselves as the people you can make fun of.

Susan Carland:

Okay, like who? Who do you think's going to step into that space?

Michael Shafar:

That's a good question. For example, people are making fun of anti-vaxxers now. And I don't think that they were a feature of comedy 10 years ago, but they've risen up as the people you can make fun of now. So I guess my point is, I think new groups do kind of just appear over time that you can mock and ridicule. We just haven't seen their special breed of stupidity arise just yet. But they will arise over time.

Susan Carland:

Right.

Michael Shafar:

So as we lose one group –

Susan Carland:

Pete Evan steps in.

Michael Shafar:

Pete Evan steps in and fills the void for us, you know what I mean? He's a hero in many ways. He is a comedy hero, Pete Evans. And we thank him for his service to the industry.

Susan Carland:

I imagine when Trump went out of power, that would actually have been hard for comedians. He was the gift that kept on giving, I imagine, for comedians.

Michael Shafar:

Well, do you know what? He was actually... Every comedian I've spoken to has almost said the opposite of that, to be honest, because it's so hard to make a joke about someone who's already so ridiculous. So it's so hard to write comedy about something that's already totally insane and is already funnier than all the jokes you could even try to imagine. So I think him actually leaving, it's probably been good for comedy. Joe Biden is easy to make fun, if you wanted to do politics about American politicians, I mean jokes about American politicians. Joe Biden's easier to make fun of than Donald Trump, because he tries to be a proper president. So you can make fun of someone who's trying to be a proper president. Whereas how can you make fun of Donald Trump when he's in on the joke already? He's ridiculous. And there's nothing to make fun of there, almost. It's so ridiculous that there's no point trying to make fun of it.

Susan Carland:

That's really interesting.

Michael Shafar:

So yeah.

Susan Carland:

If comedy didn't change, if comedians just stuck to their guns, we're like, “Nup, we're making fun of black people. Deal with it.” Or gay people or whatever. What would happen? What does that do to a society?

Michael Shafar:

That's interesting. I imagine if you were a black person and you saw a comedian making jokes at your expense, you’d feel very, very upset about that, and you would feel alienated from society and I'm sure there'd be a lot of mental health kind of issues that would arise in that community. So yeah, I think that's potentially the consequence of doing jokes at their expense, but I would say, comedians can try whatever jokes they want. And the audience just won't laugh.

Susan Carland:

Yeah. Yeah. No one's muzzling you.

Michael Shafar:

Yeah, exactly. So if a comedian wants to stick to their guns and just keep disparaging groups of people, that's so fine, you can do that. But audiences won't laugh and they'll stop coming to your shows and you'll just fade away. So I really do believe that like the market... I believe in the free market in this respect. I reckon just let people –

Susan Carland:

The capitalism of comedy.

Michael Shafar:

Yeah. It's funny, because I'm quite progressive, but then when it comes to... Yeah, I've got a very capitalistic approach. Free market. Yeah. Just let people say what they want and people, the audiences will make decisions about who to support and who not to support. I don't think there's necessarily a need to muzzle comedians, because I just think society works it out.

Susan Carland:

So there we have it. In the end, society just sorts it out. I must say, that was a lot of fun, discussing the future of comedy. Thanks to all our guests: Michael Shafar, Nazeem Hussain, Prue Blake, Pete Helliar and Professor Tony Moore. Next week we will explore a brand-new topic on What Happens Next?. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time.