‘What Happens Next’: Are We Too Quick to Cancel?

Dr Susan Carland:

Hello listeners, welcome to ‘What Happens Next?’. I'm Dr Susan Carland. Over the next few episodes, we will take a look at the future of comedy. What will be the impact of cancel culture and political correctness on comedy in, say, 20 years time? And what will this mean for stand-up comedians?

Good evening, everyone, my name is Susan. Now I've just flown in from Sydney, and boy are my arms tired. A funny thing happened to me on the way here tonight, I was rushing out the front gate and I saw…

Okay, so maybe comedy isn't that easy – take my word for it. Not only is there the pressure to be funny, but also now more than ever, there's the pressure not to offend. We're going to talk to a bunch of comedians and experts about their perspectives on the future of comedy, the issues they need to think about, and what impact it's having on their craft. We'll be speaking to some new waves of comedians fighting back against tired, old tropes, and being funnier than ever. What's driving these changes, and why are they so important as part of a welcoming and inclusive society? We'll also be looking at the history of comedy in Australia and its larrikin roots. Our guests, Nazeem Hussain, Michael Shafar, Peter Helliar, Prue Blake, and historian Dr Tony Moore, welcome to ‘What Happens Next?’ episode one on the future of comedy.

Peter Helliar:

Hi, I'm Peter Helliar and I am a comedian, which means I tell jokes, sometimes on stage, sometimes on television, and not on TikTok yet.

Dr Susan Carland:

Peter Helliar started doing comedy before the age of social media. He admits he does get a little anxious about whether some of his jokes might receive backlash or outrage.

Pete Helliar, thank you for joining us.

Peter Helliar:

Thank you, Susan, for having me.

Dr Susan Carland:

All right, question number – I love that we're laughing already, this is off to a great start. What do you see as some of the biggest impacts of cancel culture on comedy today?

Peter Helliar:

I mean, I think cancel culture is – it's like the angry cousin of political correctness. If cancel culture, I think, was a comedian, I would say they found their voice, but they don't really know what they want to say. Or at least they found their platform, maybe, but they haven't found their voice, they need to sharpen their focus, and their approach is a bit scattergun for my liking. I think the problem with cancel culture for me is it doesn't give anyone a chance to evolve. We all make mistakes. If you're a comedian you are trying to reflect society at that time. Now sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong, but this idea that you can go back 20 years and find somebody's tweet that they did when they were exactly 20 years younger, it's problematic, and I think it's unfair, particularly if it's not a pattern of behaviour.

If they've continued that pattern of behaviour up until recently, then there's a case to be made. But if it's a one-off tweet, and if they've shown either remorse or if there's been a change of behaviour and attitude from that person, then I don't quite get it. I mean, I do find it weird, in not just comedy, but even with sports, this idea that an 18-year-old footballer who maybe has left high school early, may be from broken homes, is supposed to be woke.

Dr Susan Carland:

Yeah.

Peter Helliar:

It seems really unfair to me. And then you start wondering, okay, well, who are the cancel culture warriors really trying to defend here? If you're going after this fictitious, uneducated footballer, who are you defending? Who are you standing up for?

Dr Susan Carland:

It's interesting, isn't it? It's this ironic behaviour we have where we take a very time specific thing that someone said 20 years ago, and then prosecute it against the very time bound attitudes of today, but we act like these are universal truths – that people have always thought this way, or always felt this way. Yeah, it's a weird thing we do where we act like the way we think now is actually timeless.

Peter Helliar:

Well, the Kevin Hart tweet was really interesting. It was 20 years ago or so, and it was a homophobic tweet. My understanding is since then, and in the years between, he's done work in that space. So cancel culture got onto it, he loses the job of hosting the Oscars. So is cancel culture really about – what did that do for the fight against homophobia, against the idea of a Black man hosting the Oscars at a time where we are trying to get more representation, to get the Academy to be more representative of society? Black films weren't getting nominated, and yet we have a Black man hosting the Oscars, yet he loses that gig because of a tweet 20 years ago. I just think that's a known goal for cancel culture.

Nazeem Hussain:

Hi, my name is Nazeem Hussain, and I'm a comedian who makes you laugh.

Dr Susan Carland:

You actually found that funny?

Nazeem Hussain:

Because it's ridiculous.

Dr Susan Carland:

Nazeem Hussain is an Australian comedian, TV personality, writer, and activist. Nazeem speaks out seriously against issues like racism, but he also likes to turn them on their head and use them in his comedy.

Dr Susan Carland:

Nazeem Hussain, welcome.

Nazeem Hussain:

Thank you very much, Susan, so good to be here.

Dr Susan Carland:

Tell me about your experience as a comedian. You're a Muslim, your background is Sri Lankan, do you ever feel the pressure to represent, to reassure people about either of those things.

Nazeem Hussain:

Oh yeah.

Dr Susan Carland:

To be the poster boy for either of those communities? How do you deal with that?

Nazeem Hussain:

When I first started doing comedy, or being visible as a Muslim, or a brown person, in a landscape that I didn't have anyone that looked, or many people that looked like me, and you, I think there was definitely much more of a feeling to represent. And that came from within me and also from people that watched from our communities, because everyone else that I grew up watching on TV that looked like me, that was Muslim, were mostly kind of nuts, just yelling about stuff, or they were walking out of a court, or accused of terrorism, or something. So yeah, there's definitely the expectation that, hey Nazeem, you're a Muslim, don't stuff up, make people think that we're good. That was an expectation.

But I think now the longer I do comedy, the less I feel that. I don't think audiences really care as much anymore. However, I still often receive messages from people going, “It's so great to see a brown person representing, you change the way people think about Muslims," all that kind of stuff. People will often send me messages like that, but they're Muslims or brown people, and I don't know if what they're saying is true, that I actually do have an effect on the way people think about Muslims or brown people.

But yeah, sorry. In answer to your question, I don't feel that pressure as much anymore, because I think I've made enough mistakes publicly to feel like I don't have to be this perfect person on television all the time, or on a stage. I've always felt that responsibility to never say the wrong thing, in case I do and then suddenly – well, I guess I'd probably now call it cancelled – get cancelled, not just from Twitter, but from the community or from the racist media, who are just out to get Muslims. So I just feel like that has died down a bit now, I've made enough mistakes that have gone unnoticed, maybe, so now I feel like I can just relax, I can just be a bit more myself and not worry about saying the right or wrong thing.

Prue Blake:

Hi, my name is Prue Blake, I am a Melbourne based comedian that just won the RAW National Company Competition.

Dr Susan Carland:

Prue, what made you want to get into comedy in the first place?

Prue Blake:

Well, I moved to Melbourne for my PhD from Brisbane, and I did an improv class, because I thought it would help me get laid.

Dr Susan Carland:

How'd that work out?

Prue Blake:

Yeah, it was good.

Dr Susan Carland:

Tick.

Prue Blake:

Yeah, it did work well, but it's destroyed my whole life because just from that one improv class it just was like, more improv classes, more shows, going into smaller indie teams for improv, going onto a house team. Then being like, I want more of the limelight, I'm going to go do stand-up, and so it's just devolved into all comedy all the time.

Dr Susan Carland:

How crucial do you think the social change element of comedy should be? I see a lot of it now, a lot of comedians are really leaning into that approach to comedy. Do you think that's a good thing for comedy?

Prue Blake:

No. I think it can be, but if it gets overused, does it not become less powerful? When it was a rare moment, that could be really powerful, someone's really saying something. But now it's almost like we get to a comedy festival, people have these hour-long shows, and it's expected that at the 45-minute mark you have some sort of emotional breakthrough, or you really push something you believe in, you get emotional about it, then you go back to the laughs. So it becomes almost formulaic, and I think not as genuine or authentic, and then where's the power in it anymore?

Dr Susan Carland:

Well especially, like you said, if comedy's about surprise, there's no surprise in that.

Prue Blake:

There's no surprise in it, and it's also – if you're doing it because you want to win awards and not because you really believe in a message, is that really going to come through in the same way, or is it going to hit in the same way?

Dr Susan Carland:

Do you think comedians have any obligation to speak about the group that they may be perceived to be representing? Do you feel compelled to talk about or make jokes about being a woman, or sexism?

Prue Blake:

I do have some jokes about being a woman, because it's naturally a part of my experience, but I don't feel compelled to talk about it, and I don't think I want it to be a big part of my comedy overall. And I think when we will have true inclusion in comedy is when people that are in minorities, that feel like now they can only go on stage and talk about their race, or their sexual identity, or their gender identity – but if they feel like they can go on stage and talk about whatever the fuck they want, and those things are just a little part of who they are, and maybe they come up in a few jokes, but it doesn't have to be getting distilled down into almost a character of sorts, I think that would actually mean that comedy has become a more inclusive place.

Dr Susan Carland:

So cast your mind 50, 100 years into the future. What does the trajectory of comedy look like?

Prue Blake:

Yeah, I think it is an interesting question, because at the moment I go, will the youth of today, and the young people, are they going to come through and come out to comedy nights when they've got these TikTok clips that are 60 seconds long and perfectly geared to their brain, and celebrate this mass mediocrity? Everyone's seeing the same things, you're enjoying the same things, and they're just hitting at this base level. I would love to say that in 50, 100 years time comedy is this incredible cultural part of Australia, and everyone's going out, they see shows all the time, we have great festivals, and it's really diverse, and all these voices that we weren't getting to see have come out and they're doing great things, but I just don't know if that will be the case. I wonder if it will be distilled to this kind of short clips on social media and brief sketches, and that will be the lot of it.

Dr Susan Carland:

The internet-ification of comedy.

Prue Blake:

The internet-ification of comedy.

Dr Susan Carland:

Right., Which is terrifying.

Prue Blake:

It's so terrifying, but I think even now sometimes you're on a really long lineup show and I'm going, how are these people sitting through this, and paying attention for this long?

Dr Susan Carland:

Yeah.

Prue Blake:

I would struggle.

Dr Susan Carland:

So the breakthrough that you'd need to have at 45 minutes, you now need to be having at 45 seconds.

Prue Blake:

Yeah, again and again and again.

Dr Susan Carland:

Tony Moore is an associate professor of communications and media studies at Monash University. He's a historian and cultural scholar currently working on a history of comedy in Australia.

Dr Susan Carland:

Tony, it is great to see you. Tell us about the history of comedy in Australia, what does it tell us about our psyche?

Tony Moore:

In looking at general patterns in comedy in Australia I coined a phrase: the larrikin carnivalesque. And there seems to be, to me, from first encounters with IndigenoNMVC     us people, through the convict period, colonial period, throughout the 20th century, a kind of subversive side to our comedy, an anti-authoritarian side. Now that doesn't mean people rising up and rebelling every five minutes, but certainly taking the piss frequently.

Dr Susan Carland:

How have you seen comedy change in Australia in the last 20 years?

Tony Moore:

Well, in the last 20 years there’s been a – comedy's always pushing at the boundaries of legitimacy and what's acceptable. So in the 1890s it was used to de-legitimised posh people, basically, aristocrats, British rule. That kind of move to Federation and more radical visions was used to say, “Well, you don't speak for us, we working class people,” or “we Irish-Australians”, or this minority, that group that are not full citizens – “We are pushing for our rights”, and they're using comedy to do that. In the last 20 years we've seen non-English-speaking-background Australians really seize the stage. Women have always been present in Australian comedy, but have really come to the fore. Think of ‘Kath and Kim’, Wendy Harmer, Sharon Strzelecki as a character. And we've seen Indigenous comedians who have always been present in entertainment, always been there, but actually come to the fore as the best comedians in a way. I'm not saying other people aren't good, too, but they've really had fresh and new ways of doing comedy. And women's comedy, think of Hannah Gadsby, and it's really been an explosion.

Dr Susan Carland:

What do you think comedy is going to look like in 20 years in Australia?

Tony Moore:

I think that already the means of production have been democratised. So look at the ‘Get Crackin'’ women, with their original cooking show, or ‘Bondi Hipsters’. We've seen people just seize the limelight via YouTube, another platform. I think we're going to see a lot more comedy as politics.

Dr Susan Carland:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tony Moore:

Some of the things that progressive politics do that they don't necessarily think through the implications of.

Dr Susan Carland:

Okay, like what?

Tony Moore:

A desire to control and shush people up, which is a routine thing, it's always been part of left-wing politics, but the other side has been a more libertarian opening up. As someone like myself associated with progressive politics. I've always been on the, “If you can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution” side, so wishing for the debates to be open rather than closed down. So I think we're going to see a lot more pushing against that, and it's not just going to be on the right, it's going to be people like in the sixties who did that, like Richard Neville and Germaine Greer, and I think we've seen that start already.

I think we're going to see more pushing against that almost therapeutic state that wants to keep us safe all the time. And I'm not saying, ‘Don't keep us safe from COVID’, but a cultural or intellectual safety, just pushing against it, as they have in the past. And we all know what happened in the late fifties through the sixties into the seventies – there was a great freeing up of society, and film, comedy, music. They all played their part in that, and will again.

Dr Susan Carland:

Michael Shafar is a Melbourne-based comedian who has appeared many times on television and to sold-out festivals around the country. His latest show explores his experience with testicular cancer, cancel culture, racism, and, according to his bio, the important and urgent questions on the perils of skinny jeans. Michael Shafar, the first question I want to ask you is, what do you think is the point of comedy?

Michael Shafar:

I think it's just to make people laugh, I think that's the point. I think that some people will think that it has some more artistic purpose, which I think is nice if it does, but for me it's just got to be funny first. If it does anything else, great, but if it's funny, that's all that matters.

Dr Susan Carland:

Right, so you don't see it as having any greater social purpose or truth to power?

Michael Shafar:

No, not at all. I know that a lot of people do have that philosophy, and maybe some of my comedy does serve some sort of purpose. I like to think it does, but I never write stuff to serve a purpose, I write stuff because I'm like, is it funny, and is it original? Those are the two boxes that I just try to tick every time. And if it does anything else, like, I don't know, dismantles racism or prejudice, great, but yeah, I don't try to do anything else. I am aware, though, that as a Jewish person I'm always representing my people, whether I want to or not. And I don't want to, but people assume that I am. So I am very conscious of how I come across as a Jewish person on stage, and I want to make sure that that people who see me will at least leave with hopefully a positive attitude towards the Jewish people, which I think it's ridiculous if I have to serve that purpose, but I accept that I do to some extent.

Dr Susan Carland:

Yeah, it's ridiculous, but it's also reality.

Michael Shafar:

Yeah, exactly.

Dr Susan Carland:

That's a heavy burden to wear.

Michael Shafar:

Yeah, it sucks, I don't want it.

Dr Susan Carland:

Like how do you be funny while also trying to be the ultimate Jewish poster boy?

Michael Shafar:

Yeah, well that's exactly the point. There's so many jokes, or there's been so much material over the years that I'd love to do, but I think that it would not be a smart thing for me to do in the climate that I live in.

Dr Susan Carland:

Tell us about that.

Michael Shafar:

Well, I'm very careful about perpetuating any Jewish stereotypes. I'm very careful about when I discuss the Holocaust, and things like that. My grandfather's a Holocaust survivor, I talk about it in the show. I'm very careful about not trivialising the Holocaust or making jokes that are at the expense of Holocaust survivors. And when I discuss being Jewish, I always try to make sure, okay, I don't want to perpetuate a stereotype about Jews and money, I don't want to perpetuate a stereotype that Jews are stingy, or anything like that. So yeah, there's a lot of, I think, boundaries I think I put around myself, but to be honest, they're just things that have come up over the years where people have said to me, “I don't think you should say that because you're implying this,” and I'm like, “Oh, I didn't even realise that,” so a lot of this stuff has just come up over the years, and now I'm a lot more conscious of it. And it's annoying because I don't want to have to think about it, but I certainly do.

Dr Susan Carland:

Yeah, so do you feel like at times you have to be hyper-aware?

Michael Shafar:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's frustrating because sometimes I think I'm doing that, and I'm being hyper-aware, and then someone will misinterpret a joke and think that I'm saying one thing when I thought it was really clear I was saying the opposite. And then I have to ask myself, are people getting the irony, are they getting what I'm saying? So yeah, that's a bit frustrating, and I'm always trying to get the right balance.

Dr Susan Carland:

Then would you say that it is okay for us to make jokes about our own experiences, or our own groups? Like you can make jokes about being Jewish in a way that obviously I could not, or cancer.

Michael Shafar:

Yeah.

Dr Susan Carland:

Would you say that that's okay?

Michael Shafar:

Not necessarily. So I know that me being a cancer survivor, or maybe being Jewish, or whatever, gives me a bit more credibility to talk about those things, but still I have to be really careful about what I say. And I can talk about those subjects, and I think people will be like, “Okay, it's okay for him to talk about the subject”, and so I got a bit of a grace period to talk about the subjects, but they're still very, I guess, discerning and wondering, “Okay, but who's the target of the subject?”

I used to have this joke about people coming up to me when I was going through treatment and saying, “Oh, you should speak to other people who are going through cancer, that'll be good for your mental health.” And I'm like, I can't imagine that being a good experience for my mental health, just talking to other people going through cancer, like yeah, what a bag of laughs that is going to be. But I used to say that on stage, and that joke didn't really work because it was a joke that was making fun of other people who were going through cancer treatments, and those are people who are disempowered and are having a tough time, so people didn't feel comfortable laughing at that joke. So even though I'm talking about my own personal experience in cancer, that joke wouldn't work because it was targeting a group of people who are having a terrible time, and people don't feel comfortable laughing at that.

Dr Susan Carland:

And are there ever people who just say, “You shouldn't laugh at cancer anyway.”?

Michael Shafar:

Yeah, I do get that.

Dr Susan Carland:

“That's just not okay.” Yeah, because I wondered about that, and I wondered about if a woman makes a joke about her sexual assault, or her miscarriage, or her abortion, for example, people could get really upset about that, even though she could say, “But this was my experience, and I want to be able to joke about that.” But even that's not okay, or your cancer experience.

Michael Shafar:

Yeah, I mean, there are some people who are always going to say there are particular topics that should never be discussed in the context of comedy. I've had people say to me, “You should never talk about cancer,” and I know the women have said similar things, I know that women – female commedians – have heard they shouldn't talk about their own sexual assault, like you said, or an abortion, or a miscarriage, or something tragic that has happened to them. And I just think that's wrong, that's not correct. You can absolutely talk about every topic, and you should. And I think that there are going to be people in the audience who are always going to have a strong emotional response to particular topics, and you can empathise and understand that response.

I had someone send me a message saying, “I don't think you should ever joke about cancer because I'm going through my second round of treatment at the moment. There's nothing funny about it.” And I have a lot of empathy for that person, and not everyone can respond to a cancer diagnosis the way that I have, because I just think everything's funny and that's just how I deal with things. So I have a lot of empathy with that person, but I still think that they're wrong to say you can't make jokes about cancer, because I think doing that is so important. It helps de-stigmatise the diagnosis and makes people more aware. I know so many men would be checking their testicles after I talk about my experience, and statistically one of them has probably picked up cancer early because of that.

So to say you can't talk about a particular topic is wrong. I have Jewish people say, “You can't talk about the Holocaust on stage, you can never put that in the context of stand-up comedy." And I understand Jewish people are going to react really strongly to that, particularly people who their parents or grandparents have survived the Holocaust. But again, they're wrong, because it's really important for that to be discussed in today's society, and you'd be amazed how much you actually raise people's awareness about these topics when you talk about them on stage. I did a joke once about a Holocaust denier who thought that only 2 million Jews died in the Holocaust so it wasn't a genocide, and my joke was like, “I still feel like that's enough, though, I feel like that's heaps. Even if you're right, that's still totally a genocide.” And that was a joke, but the jokes about the Holocaust, but I'm making fun of a Holocaust denier.

Dr Susan Carland:

Yes, yes.

Michael Shafar:

So the target is very different to the subject, but then someone came out to me after the show and was like, “I didn't know that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust.” And for me, I just assumed that everyone knew that.

Dr Susan Carland:

I would have thought that, too.

Michael Shafar:

I would have thought that, too.

Dr Susan Carland:

Peter Helliar says audiences have definitely become more political.

Peter Helliar:

I grew up not knowing who my parents voted for, we didn't really chat about politics in our house. I didn't really know what left or right meant from a political point of view, I knew what it meant from a directional point of view, thankfully. I wasn't just walking around in circles my entire teens. But from a political – I didn't know what it meant until my early twenties, which is crazy now when I think about that. But now it just seems that everyone wants to know where you are on the political spectrum. I think even our audiences feel an expectation to know where you are. Even if you're not talking about it on stage, I get the sense they would like to know, before they've even booked tickets, where your politics lie.

Dr Susan Carland:

Do you think that's a fair expectation?

Peter Helliar:

No, no, it's not. I don't think so, although... maybe I'm wrong. If you're a lefty, but you want a night of escapism comedy, you don't necessarily want to, and you see comedian who is doing all the dogs and cats gear, and the aeroplane gear, and they were still making you laugh, and then you find out he's alt right privately, does that change your experience? It's interesting, I don't know, I guess each to their own, and I suspect they probably won't book tickets for a second show. There are enough comedians to enjoy, yeah.

Dr Susan Carland:

And for our final word, here's Nazeem Hussain.

Cast your mind 50 years into the future, what do you think comedy looks like?

Nazeem Hussain:

Honestly, I often think about that, and I think comedy will continue to look kind of like the way society is. So comedians just tend to reflect back to audiences, the sensibilities, and the culture of the time. So I think it'll be entirely Muslim, Islam will have taken over the... no, I don't know. It’s really interesting. I feel like they'll still be the debates about, has comedy gone too far? Because I've heard interviews from comedians from 20 years ago, from 30 years ago, talking about whether comedians have gone too far. Eddie Murphy back when he did his ‘Raw and Delirious’ sets, the interviews that he did after that were the same questions that comedians are answering right now, so I think it's always going to be a debate about. But that's the role of comedy, to almost take things too far, sometimes take things too fast, sometimes not take things far enough.

So yeah it's going to keep performing the same role, and I think maybe that answers your question about why we laugh, comedy maybe takes people to the edge of where they normally think. Because if you think about it, our job is literally to sit around all day and just try to get to the end of a thought that normally you're supposed to stop thinking about because you've got things to do in your day, whereas I think about stupid topics for way too long.

Dr Susan Carland:

I love that.

Nazeem Hussain:

That’s a day’s work.

Dr Susan Carland:

Comedians exist in a space beyond the full stop.

Nazeem Hussain:

Oh my God, can you attribute that quote to me please?

Dr Susan Carland:

But it's true, that's what you're saying. That's really interesting.

Nazeem Hussain:

That's what we do, Susan, it's a really important job, we exist beyond the full stop.

Dr Susan Carland:

Feels like a Rumi quote.

Nazeem Hussain:

I know, that's awesome.

Dr Susan Carland:

Nazeem Hussain, thank you so much for your time today.

And that concludes part one of our look into the future of comedy. Next week we will speak to our comedians about why performing comedy in today's age isn't as hard as it's made out to be. We'll also get some tips from some of Australia's funniest minds on how to navigate comedy in a rapidly changing world. And I can even offer some of my own hotly in-demand tips on comedy, said absolutely no one ever. Hope you'll join us next time on ‘What Happens Next?’.