Kicking Goals – What Happens Next? podcast on the culture of sport

Susan Carland:

Welcome to the final instalment of our topic on the culture of sport, former player and Players Association President, and now Richmond Football club CEO, Brendon Gale talks about the work underway at Tigerland and why connection is the way the club is trying to bring everyone along with them.

Brendon Gale:

My name is Brendon Gale. I'm the Chief Executive of Richmond Football Club. I'm a father. I'm a passionate diversity advocate. I'm a cold water swimmer, and a proud Richmond supporter.

Susan Carland:

Brendon Gale, welcome.

Brendon Gale:

Thank you, Susan. Good to be at Monash.

Susan Carland:

You are a really interesting person to ask about this topic because you can come at it from both perspectives. You've been a player yourself, and then you represented the players and now you help manage a successful club. Do you think we put too much pressure on sports players to be the be all and end all of moral virtue in society?

Brendon Gale:

Something we say to our players when they come in is, I guess it's the role model discussion. At the end of the day, whether they're a role model or not, you really don't get to choose. It's a decision made by other people, unfortunately. So we say to our players that the landscape changes and the things that are expected of you or the standards are probably going to be slightly different. You're going to be marked a bit harder. So it's something we try and, I guess impress upon players and help them understand that there are different standards of behaviour. The public invest a lot of faith and a lot of confidence and a lot of belief in the AFL community, in the sporting community and athletes. And so, things are going to change. Does it mean you become the poster boy or girl for virtue and all things great? Well, no, it doesn't because we're imperfect and sometimes we fall short of those expectations. Yeah. So we just try and help articulate what the standards and expectations of conduct and behaviour are, knowing that we all fall short from time to time. And when you do, I guess the AFL community as an institution is a powerful platform. We use those moments as teachable moments to help educate and form our athletes, and also the community at large.

Susan Carland:

Has it changed a lot since you were a player, the expectations?

Brendon Gale:

Oh, in every respect. In every respect.

Susan Carland:

When you were player, did you feel this real sense of community obligation on your shoulders in the way that many players today seem to?

Brendon Gale:

Not really, because I guess we're just so much more entrenched with the community. I was a footballer but I wasn't defined by that. There wasn't this really strong athletic identity that I'm a footballer and everything I do is defined by my performance. I've got to maintain that position and respect just to anyone in the community. It was like, I was of the community. It was at the end of the day, guys worked. They were teachers. They were plumbers. They were studying like I was, and football was just something you did on the side. So now we've had this-  footballers are full-time professionals off the back of a broadcasting driven commercial revolution. And with that comes a degree of, well, it's not a degree, it's perpetual scrutiny. It's perpetual judgement, it's ongoing. So I think how athletes are scrutinised and evaluated, and with where news is going anyway, this race to outrage and division, et cetera, it's extremely different. They're very much a lot more celebrity, public figure people these days.

Susan Carland:

Yeah. And that has to mess with your head being treated in that way, people turning to stare at you. I don't know if humans are designed to be able to cope with that level of scrutiny or fascination.

Brendon Gale:

We try and ensure that players don't define themselves by that sense of athletic identity, because as an athlete, you rise and fall. You have great performances and poor performances. So if your whole sense of self worth and self confidence is tied in with that, you're going to find it pretty hard. So we work really hard to separate the person from the athlete, to help develop the person, to help that sense of self exploration, self understanding, and self worth and self love. And the saying we have at Richmond is that you're enough, you're enough. There's this football, athletic part of you, but you're enough. So I think trying to provide that sense of insulation is really important.

Susan Carland:

We often hear people talk about there being a problem in the culture of sport. Do you think that's a fair critique?

Brendon Gale:

No, I don't. No. I don't know what that means. If people were going to be more specific...

Susan Carland:

Well, I guess we hear awful stories or accusations about sexual assault or racism or homophobia, and we often see it played out in this theatre of sport.

Brendon Gale:

Yeah. No, it's a fair comment. And I think it's probably a consequence of the position that sport holds and our earliest comments, how we look up to our clubs as trusted institutions or athletes. I've been involved in many different fields of endeavour, and most of the time Richmond Football Club takes the field, we've got five indigenous players play. That's nearly 20% of our team. So, I couldn't think of any other workforces where there's 20% of your workforce made up of indigenous players. And I think you could draw a line across the AFL community. So I think in terms of race, I think we've come a long way to create an inclusive environment where people, players, athletes can be proud to be and be themselves, and be included for who they are and make really strong contributions. Now, do we get it right all the time? No, we don't. I look at the Adam Goodes scenario. But is that an opportunity to be introspective and look at ourselves, and provide teachable moments to our support base? They are. They are teachable moments. Gender is another one, I guess. Look, we've got a long way to go. But the sport that I'm involved with, and it's probably the same for a lot of sports, but Australian rules footie, since the 1850s has been played by men. It's been coached by men. It's been managed by men. The story of sport and football has been told by men, broadcasts of media. So there's been some really encouraging change. We're passionate about diversity as a footy club. There's been some really encouraging change. Could it be quicker? Yes, it could. But it's still not going to happen overnight. But the AFL women's competition, it's seismic in its impact on our code in terms of creating legitimate career pathways, normalising the presence of women in our footy clubs. My boss, Peggy O'Neal is an incredibly powerful symbol. I mean, she's much more than a symbol, but they're damn important. So I think we've gone a long way to making it an inclusive environment where people are proud to be and express themselves fully. But have we got work, can we make further progress? Yes, we can.

Susan Carland:

You mentioned about the celebrity of sport, how sports people are celebrities now, the male and the female. They're iconic. What do you think has driven that change? Like you said, when you were playing footy you were still studying, other people were working. What has created this? We've kind of returned to the Greek God idea of the sportsperson. What's precipitated that, do you think?

Brendon Gale:

I don't know. Maybe it's the proliferation of social media. I think sport has rightly or wrongly become a little more, sport is more of a media property than it ever was before. And there's probably a bit of an Americanization of sport. And so, where the people who follow sport, consume sport, may be a bit more drawn to the individual rather than the individual brand, the star as opposed to the team.

Susan Carland:

Yeah. In a very divided society, more fractured and siloed perhaps than ever before, sport is one of the few things, footy in particular, that does bring so many people together from different backgrounds, class backgrounds, which is a big one. And I feel that change. I'm a woman that wears hijab and I've been Muslim for decades. And I remember about 20 years ago, I felt uncomfortable going to the footy in my hijab. And sometimes people would say things. I didn't feel like it was my space. I feel different now when I go to the footy. If you are part of the team, it is a tribalism that can be very inclusive. And of course, racism, sexism, homophobia, all these things play out of sport, undoubtedly. But I think that's also a function of sport, is made up of the people of society, and we have sexism and racism and homophobia in our society. So of course we would find them in our sport as well.

Brendon Gale:

Look, we're in the basis... I don't want to sound self-important, but we're in the basis of nation building. I think sport in that context, and this is not just elite sport, this is community sport, this is bringing people together when everything seems to be pulling people apart. There's a huge responsibility, well, a huge opportunity, but it comes with great responsibility. And when you fall short, when you assume that responsibility, they come at you with baseball bats, because people expect more of us now and they feel we trust you. It's a privileged position to play in.

Susan Carland:

Yeah. We do seem to be seeing, and we know this for a fact, that people are not involved in community and society in the way that we used to be. Many years ago, there was a famous sociological book written called Bowling Alone, which was this investigation into the way things that we used to do together collectively, like you said, go to church, join the local choir, those sort of things. We weren't doing that together anymore. It was the disappearing of society in many ways. Sports seems to be one of the very few institutions we still have at least in Australia, where it actually seems to be growing, that more people are participating either as viewers, as club members or in community sport. Why do you think sport seems to be one of the very few things that are still bringing people together?

Brendon Gale:

Because at the end of the day, I think fundamentally sport doesn't say anything about race or gender. It doesn't say anything about class. If you can pick up the ball and throw it, it doesn't matter. So you can participate. Now people say, well, hang on a minute. Fundamentally, that's true. And you can participate as an athlete on field, or you're welcome to consume and participate off the field. In fact, it goes to the heart of our business model. We've got no business in dividing. We want to include everyone. We want to include everyone. We want everyone to come and feel welcome, and safe and supported. It's not all about altruism. It actually goes to the heart of our business model. I look at the media these days and I just think the media is just all about creating division and conflict and outrage, because that goes to their business model, and sells papers and creates interested eyeballs. That's not us. We want to include. And it's interesting, you talk about division and fragmentation of even popular culture. There was a time when you'd go to work the next day, you'd talk about Seinfeld the night before and say, "What about George?" You don't even have that anymore. People go to their own rooms and their own devices, watch whatever they want when they want it. So there's-

Susan Carland:

So sport is one of the few time-based things that brings us together.

Brendon Gale:

There's fragmentation.

Susan Carland:

You're right. Because yeah, we used to all watch Seinfeld together or whatever, because it was on the night before at 7:30. But with everything streaming...

Brendon Gale:

It's real time. It's live.

Susan Carland:

Yeah. Sport is one of the few things that we do watch as a collective.

Brendon Gale:

The question you asked right at the start about what's wrong with our culture, I'll get a little bit sensitive because there is the social benefits that we provide, the benefits, the inclusive culture, the participation, the health vitality, the community strengthening. The benefits we provide are significant. I'm really proud to be part of this big, powerful sort of community. And gee, do we make mistakes? Yeah, we do. Are we marked hard for them? Yes, we are because of the position we hold, and that goes with the territory. But from those difficult times and challenges, we use those opportunities to teach and inform, and continue to raise the standards and raise the bar.

Susan Carland:

I think one thing we've learnt during this year is that we are social beings. We function best when we're in a group or with other people. One human being is not really a human being.

Brendon Gale:

No.

Susan Carland:

We are, we're meant to be in a group. I remember, I think I was there with you when Richmond won that first grand final four years ago.

Brendon Gale:

Yep.

Susan Carland:

And you said, "The reason this matters to me so much is I can share it with my family. My family was here with me. I want to share this moment. This is why it matters more than other individual big life moments, because this is something that I have shared."

Brendon Gale:

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why even this most recent premiership doesn't quite feel real. It feels like a bit of a distance at a dream, because we win. The grand final, siren to siren felt like a grand final as in no holds barred and tense. It was a blockbuster. But the siren ended and we go in the rooms and pat on the back, and a bit of a cuddle and hug and have a cold beer, and then we go back to our student dorm/hub on the Gold Coast. It's like, what do we do now? It could have been Vermont South Football Club, no disrespect to Vermont South. So it's that sharing. It's the sharing. It's the family, the loved ones who endure so much and probably sacrificed so much. It's the board. It's my staff. It's the Richmond fans. It's a family day the next day. There's those big set pieces where you share the achievement and it sort of franks it, where it just feels like we haven't had that.

Susan Carland:

I think particularly for a club like you, which like you said, your ethos is connect to thrive and win.

Brendon Gale:

Absolutely.

Susan Carland:

And that anchor point didn't feel like it was fully there. So how can you win and thrive if you didn't have the 'connect’?

Brendon Gale:

Indeed. So we're trying to work out ways, we had a dinner last night with a group of people who have been big supporters of the club, and it was good to catch up with these people. But we need to do that en masse, and we've had obviously difficulties with COVID, maybe in the new year. But no, sharing. It's all about sharing.

Susan Carland:

And for the people that do feel passionate about sport, but maybe think like every other aspect of society, they'd like to be part of a positive change as well. How would you recommend they be part of it?

Brendon Gale:

I would just go to the club and put your hand up and reach out, because clubs, their futures and this survival depend on it. Clubs need to continue to grow and evolve, and make sure they're reflective of a population that is changing so rapidly. And so, if you're a person who hasn't been involved in sport or from a different background or whatever, I'd encourage you to reach out because clubs, I think there's a real appetite to change and evolve. You can't be what you can't see. And if Richmond football club was made up of blokes like me, sitting around guiding the future direction of the footy club, we're going to shrink on the vine, because I'm going to project an image of a footy club that's based on my lived experience and my views and my own biases. So that's why we're passionate about diversity. It's not just, I guess for the internal capability and talent building. It's we want to reflect the image of our club that's reflective of these great changes in our nation. So I guess my point is, put your hand up, reach out and get involved because there's a real willingness and appetite for people to include and to renew, and grow because if we don't grow, there's no future.

Susan Carland:

Brendon Gale, thank you so much for your time.

Brendon Gale:

Thanks, Susan. Pleasure.

Susan Carland:

In the previous two episodes, we've taken the lay of the land from our experts and heard about the challenges facing sport and also the areas of hope and change. We've gathered the very best nuggets of wisdom from all of our experts to help individuals take action and get involved.

Brett Hutchins:

My name's Professor Brett Hutchins. I'm the Professor of Communications and Media Studies at Monash University. I've got a PhD in sociology, and I've been writing about media, political, and cultural issues in sport for the past 25 years.

Susan Carland:

Professor Brett Hutchins, thank you for joining us today.

Brett Hutchins:

You're welcome. Good to be here.

Susan Carland:

For people who are listening at home and wondering, what role can I play? I'm not an elite sports person, but I would love to help improve the culture of sport or increase diversity in sport. What can they do? Where should they start?

Brett Hutchins:

There's a few different places people can start at. The first of all is if you are involved in junior sport in any way, of course get involved and set an example for kids. If you want to know what kids as we know, and I find it immediately distressing when I think of raising my own son, but of course they don't learn from what we’re saying, they learn from what we do. My son just rolls his eyes at me. It's like, another lecture? My son's been the unfortunate, he's raised by a lecturer. So the messages start to wear out. But I do know he learns from my example. I do know he learns from the way I treat people. He knows by the way that when we go to the football, if you think about disability rights, instead of walking past a person in the wheelchair who’s trying to make contact with you, smile and say, hello. He sees me down the cricket club, helping out with scoring and things, and at the soccer club and running the lines and things. So if you think about it, we can all play a role because our kids are watching. And if one doesn't have kids of course, and you are a fan of a sport or a club, gauge your club. If you are a member, point to your club, tell them what they're doing well, really importantly and when you're proud of what they've done in the community and what their players are doing. When a footballer shows up to the Starlight room at the Royal Children's Hospital and a parent notices that, because they're usually in a pretty bad situation if you're in the Starlight room at the children's hospital, that's a wonderful thing. And that gets almost no publicity. So let the club know that you're really proud of the fact that the athlete was there and it made a difference. And when clubs don't live up to the standards that I'm sure they claim to, point that out too. There are voices. There's also of course things like social media. And I really think importantly, there's also writing to things like leagues and becoming involved in any other way. I think fans underestimate their power. These clubs only exists because people are willing to pay them money. Mailing back memberships, it might feel like a token act, but they do notice. And I think most people need to be aware that almost every professional sport club in this country won't admit it, but they have people looking at the online forums for their clubs. They're often there anonymously, but they're watching, because I know. Through my research, I've actually spoken to them about this fact. And speaking out against abhorrent behaviour, if you think about really someone like Adam Goodes who for a while there was just such a sad story. He's become quite a heroic figure in a lot of ways, as much as I'm sure he probably doesn't like that term. But it did come from a set of debates among fans that finally got the AFL to understand that Sam Newman is not the voice of the community. Sam Newman, without wishing to get myself sued, appears to be pretty racist if you judge him by his public comments. But there's a lot of people in the outer who don't feel the same way and weren't booing.

And certainly, cricket's a lot more pleasant these days from when I was growing up. Being at the SCG growing up when the Indian team was playing was frankly a pretty awful experience. The abuse from the outer towards the Indian players standing on the boundary line was not great. It's a different cricketing environment now. And of course, you can actually dob in what's called antisocial behaviour, as much as Australians don't tend to like the word dob. But the simple point is this is someone's workplace and you're sitting there, and most of our kids growing up in cities have friends from all different cultures and ethnicities, it's not really cool.

Susan Carland:

So you think it's improving?

Brett Hutchins:

I do. I think it's got a long way to go. And really, I think what this comes back to is there’s part of me because of where I'm from, because of what I was able to once to do with my body, because of my family relationships, because of my community relationships, there's part of me that genuinely loves sport. I'm ambivalent about it most of the time, but why would I be dedicating so much energy to it if I didn't at some level do that? The thing about loving something is also wanting it to be better, actually the good things that it offers, the good experiences, those moments of joy and I suppose sadness, the ups and downs. You want as many people who access the good parts of sport as possible. We want more accessibility. We want more diversity because at its best, of course it offers the very rare transcendent moments where we get to experience them collectively. And it doesn't happen to me much these days, but just occasionally something will happen in sport and I get that feeling in my chest. I don't know what you'd call it, a joy, a happiness, whatever. That is amazing.

Brett Hutchins:

And of course, wanting everyone to experience that or experience for themselves by going onto a sporting field. So everything from disability sport to aged sport, it's something that should be opened to a lot more people than it presently is because of, I think the dominance of the elite model. If you can't do it this way, this isn't for you. We lose so many kids in junior sport who should continue because of the really wonderful experiences we have, but I'm not going to make it. I'm not good enough. And they're the messages, you're not going to make it to the next level. I mean, that's ridiculous. If only 2% of the population can be an elite sportsmen, we should be really setting up systems that allow us to keep the 98% and not build them around to feed through for the two per cent. And that's when I say, there's part of me that loves sport. I can't play it anymore because of various injuries caused by actually having once played it at a high level. That's the thing. It comes with a physical cost, but that's not really what you want for most people. You want the enjoyment. You want the social experience. You want the ups and downs. I don't know, you just want the social contact and ritual. I think that's what COVID showed us in a lot of ways, when you remove that, what we're missing, we miss our routines. We're habitual creatures and sport can really play a powerful role in creating good habits as opposed to bad ones.

Susan Carland:

Professor Brett Hutchins. Thank you very much for today.

Brett Hutchins:

You're welcome. Good to speak to you.

Erik Denison:

Hi, my name is Erik Denison. I'm from the School of Social Sciences at Monash University, and I study ways to stop homophobic and sexist behaviour in sport, but really in any setting.

Susan Carland

Erik Denison, welcome.

Erik Denison:

Thank you.

Susan Carland:

If people are really interested in this topic and they want to find out more, where could they go? Where's a good place to get some accessible, reliable information?

Erik Denison:

There's a really good paper that I think is their most downloaded paper in the history of Harvard Business Review. It's called Why Diversity Programmes Fail. That's a really good entry point because it really helps you understand everything I've just talked about. And I think back in the thirties, there was a study by Richard LaPierre that found this, that people would in person.... There was a study, basically he travelled around America. He went with a Chinese couple and there was a very strong anti-Chinese sentiment back then. And so when he surveyed the places, they said, no, we don't serve Chinese people. When he went in person, they served the Chinese people. Different norms, different conforming. We've known about this for a long time. So just search for conformity to norms, attitude behaviour gap, anything like that. Our research, those at BehaviourWorks are doing a fair bit on prejudice reduction now in terms of what actually works, not what we assume to work, which generally, I think a lot of the social programmes that we have developed haven't been evidence-based, haven't been rigorously designed. And then we're wondering why literacy rates are going down for kids, not up. And so, how did we design these programmes? Were they rigorous? Did we think about implementing them in multiple different settings? Those kinds of things. So I think it's probably around just looking up that conformity to norms, conformity to behaviour, and there are so many papers on that. And I get the sense, I guess I'm doing my duty as the scientist telling the world that if you're a senior manager, a middle manager, rugby coach, there's a lot of resources out there. We've made a video actually in collaboration with UBC, which explains all of what we've just talked about. So I can send that to you. But the video looked at why all the anti-homophobia programmes in sport have failed. And we explain really clearly, it was a behaviour science YouTube channel, that it's because they've been focusing on the attitudes, not the norms. And so we explain why that works and what they need to do. So that might be a useful video that's made for sport, but it could be applied for pretty much any setting.

Susan Carland:

Erik Denison, thank you so much for your time.

Ruth Jeanes:

Hi, I'm Ruth Jeanes. I'm an Associate Professor in the Faculty of Education at Monash University, and my research looks at community sport and inclusion and diversity within community sport.

Susan Carland:

Ruth Jeanes, it's so nice to meet you.

Ruth Jeanes:

It's lovely to meet you, Susan. Thank you.

Susan Carland:

What advice would you give to someone who wants to support diversity and inclusion in sport? What should they do?

Ruth Jeanes:

I think there's many things, really. I think just in general, in terms of supporting diversity and inclusion, do support diverse forms of sports. So for our women athletes, watch them. Watch them on the TV. Engage with them. Go and see games. Get out there and do that. And I think be willing to sort of embrace diverse forms of sport and to engage with that. I think at a pragmatic level, if you're involved in sport locally at your local club, just having a look at who's there and who's not, and why are they there and why are they not? Who's running the club? Who's the people making the decisions? And is the diversity there and is there inclusion there? And if there isn't, can you advocate for that? Can you suggest that maybe we make some changes and bring in more diverse representation on our club committees. And who's coaching? Who's coaching our kids, and what's their background? And can we do more to support them, support different types of coaches to get into the sporting arena? So I think it is about that. I think first, the most important thing is recognising that it's not an equal playing field and that sport isn't inclusive, is a big first step. And then seeing, okay, well, how can I support others within that and really advocate for them?

Susan Carland:

Ruth Jeanes, thank you so much for your time today.

Ruth Jeanes:

Thank you.

Rana Hussain:

Hi, I'm Rana Hussain. I'm a Diversity and Inclusion Consultant. I work with the Richmond Football Club and the DoMore Project.

Susan Carland:

Rana Hussain, thank you so much for joining us. For the average person at home who is not an elite sports person and doesn't own a media company, what can they do to support or increase diversity in sport, inclusion in sport?

Rana Hussain:

My biggest tip would be if you're a member, speak up. Well, first I would say become a member of your local club or your elite club. If you can afford it, buy a membership and then use your voice. Use the opportunities that that provides, because clubs with a local or an elite level will listen to their members. If the members say they want something or they're not happy about something, they will listen because it is ultimately a business. That's the bottom line here, so use your voice in that way. Write in letters, call the club, keep pressure. If it matters to you, keep pressure on your club because they will listen. And then I think as well particularly around gender, vote with your eyeballs, watch women's sport, go watch a game if you can be there live. Buy tickets, watch on television, wherever it's broadcast because again, the argument that comes back around being more equitable with diversity and particularly with women's sport, is that people don't watch it. People don't turn up. It's not making us money. So if we want it to happen, then we need to turn up and show them that we want it. And then the other thing I would say, if you've got a club that you like, if it's Richmond, look into what the community side of your clubs are doing, because they actually do so much work in this space. There's so much that's happening, it's just not the story that's told often. And again, that's because I think clubs feel like people only tune in for the Dusty story or Trent Cotchin story. But if you are interested in this place and you want to see more of it, click on those videos, click on those website articles and let them know that you like hearing about that stuff.

Susan Carland:

Rana Hussain, thank you so much.

Rana Hussain:

Thank you for having me.

Susan Carland:

That's it for this episode and for this topic. We'll be back next time with a brand new conundrum to unpack on What Happens Next?