#NoFilter - What Happens Next? podcast on social media and mental health

Susan Carland (SC): Welcome to the next topic in this series of What Happens Next? the podcast. This time we're looking at social media and its potential impact on mental health, especially of young people. We'll hear from a range of experts, from psychologists to social scientists about what's going on in teenage brains and how we can all use social media for good instead of evil.

Nicky Jacobs has a unique insight into the teenage mind and how it's impacted by social media. Her research shows that teenage brains operate differently and are differently impacted by social media. In this episode, we'll talk to Nicky about what happens to the next generation if we don't change how they engage with and use social media, and what's happening inside those brains right now. Let's hear from Nicky.

Unfortunately, due to Covid, we've had to adapt and do a number of these interviews by phone. So while occasionally the audio isn't as great as always, we promise you the content is.

Nicky Jacobs (NJ): I’m Nicky Jacobs and I'm an Associate Professor at Monash University in the Faculty of Education. I'm also a clinical and counselling psychologist and I worked with children, teenagers and adolescents.

SC: Nicky Jacobs, welcome to the show and thank you for joining us.

You've done a lot of research on the impact on teenage brains of smartphones. Can you tell us a bit about what you've discovered and whether there's any connection between that research on smartphones and social media?

NJ: I was looking a little bit about teenage brains and understanding the impact of smartphone use on teenage brains, and just to give you a little bit of background in terms of that, it's that understanding that teenage brains are really fully developed till around 24 years old and the very last part of the brain to develop is the frontal lobe, which is that part of the brain that's responsible for our logic, regulating moods, our attention, our ability to reason. But again, that happens around, you know, early twenties. However, around the teenage years, behaviour’s more guided by the limbic system, which is in the part of the brain that’s the centre for our emotional responses. And it's what we actually called the pleasure-seeking part of the brains. And it impacts teenagers ability to, you know, they make assessment about threats, they engage in risk taking, will they, won’t they, and their instincts are very much governed by that.

So, much of teenage behaviour is very much guided by their emotions, which many struggle to regulate just because of their physiological makeup, and most take a long time to actually consider consequences. So they basically make their decision on what feels good. And we also know that 9 in 10 teenagers have a mobile phone and most of them have a smartphone. And we also know that about more than 90% of teenagers, they use the Internet for social networking, be it on their phones or other devices that they use. So now we have more than 90% of teenagers engaged in social media, and we also know that their behaviour is very much guided by their emotions, which they struggle to regulate, and they take a long time to consider consequences because they don't have that regulation. So they basically make decisions on what feels good for them and obviously and naturally this impacts on their decisions and consequential behaviour. And as such, they tend to stay home, they don't see their friends as much in real life as they would previously, and what they do is they tend to document their time when they are out in social gatherings with their phones - they'll take photos, they'll be out with friends and they’re all smiling and taking pictures of themselves. And within a minute it's up on social media, before they’ve walked across the room.

And then you've got those teenagers that are at home watching this and they feel excluded and that definitely affects them.

The G20 did a lot of research in the US on smartphones and the impact on teenagers, and she found, with the use of smartphones that teenagers check their emails several times a day, they spend a lot of time online instead of doing their homework or being with friends and family. And they also develop relationships online that they wouldn't with people that they meet, that they wouldn't necessarily usually do if they were in person. And this actually has a double impact. One is, there are predators out there who target teenagers. But also teenagers are not developing those interpersonal social communication skills that they would, that they do with people in person. Even the way they communicate, they're using a different language - it's all often text based and short abbreviations, and it's impacting on their ability to have those interpersonal relationships and communication skills.

They're also losing interest in activities that they used to find enjoyable before they started getting involved with social media and online access.

The problem for parents - they're often lying about the amount of time that they spend online. They ignore any of the limits that we put on them about their use, become agitated and angry if they're interrupted or not allowed access and become very, very preoccupied with getting back online when they're away from the computer. And it also impacts on their sleep.

SC: Ah, Nicky as a parent of two teenagers, this is horrifying and familiar, I have to say. What are we to do about this? Like what, as parents or people who are concerned about young people, how do we help? It’s interesting, sometimes when I watch my kids and the stuff that they're doing online, whether it be smart phones or anything, you know your iPad or something like that is that it reminds me of the way I see people with Pokies. It seems to have a similar addictive quality, a similar effect on them. It seemed the machines seem to even operate in the same way. Should we be thinking of it in those ways and trying to tackle it like that?

NJ: Okay, I haven't done research, as such, on it, but as a psychologist and for people that I'm aware of who have teenagers who are actually having symptoms that are very similar to other addictions, like you're talking about poker machines and they are reporting those things that I just said - that they can't stop thinking about it when they're not online. It’s this FOMO, that Fear Of Missing Out, that they need to be involved and they’ve got access. Before, if they were going to a social event, they would go along, and if they're invited or if they weren’t invited, they wouldn't even know about this.

Now, what happens is, as I was saying before, within a second it’s up on social media and that child who might have not have ever known about the party in the old traditional ways of invitations and people going and saying ‘Shh don't tell anybody about it’. Now everybody knows, and that child feels like they're missing out, and even though they know it, they're more online checking all the time. Not only what's going on, but also what they might be missing out on, and it has a terrible impact. And like you said, when you're looking at other addictive behaviours, the more they use it, the more they want to use it. And you look at gaming. Forget social media, research that's done on that impact on kids that sit at home, and can get quite aggressive and their mood is definitely impacted, by the research that's been done looking at the relationship between the amount of gaming and the impact on mental health,

SC: So what are, what could we be facing in the future with this generation of young people? If we don't examine and address these issues that young people and smartphones or digital devices or social media, if we don't intervene now? Because again, when I look at my kids, I feel like this is the guinea pig generation. They're the ones who have grown up with smartphones and social media and all those things, and we have no idea the impact that makes on developing brains.

NJ: Absolutely. And when they engage, when teenagers engage in social media, it exposes them to an unrealistic view of other people's lives. And social comparisons and puts pressure on them, and it definitely impacts their mental health, be it their self-esteem, their anxiety, depression. And for those teenagers who already have issues, who are already struggling with depression and anxiety or poor self-image or ADHD, or any of those sorts of disorders, it actually makes it that much worse. You add to that the impact, and I was looking more at smartphones, but what we do know is that sleep-deprivation and poor sleep are also issues of concern because children or teenagers who use a media device right before bed time, which is when many of them do, are more likely to sleep less than they should and they’re more likely to sleep poorly. And this lack of sleep can lead to depression. Or, the phones themselves could be leading to depression because of what they're seeing on the actual social media. And that again leads to lack of sleep. Or there could be other factors, which are causing both depression or sleep deprivation and increases that as well.

So, what the research has shown us, that teenagers who spend more time outdoors and more time with their friends live, in person are 20% more likely to report being happier than their counterparts who spend less time on doing those things. Less time in real-life contact with their friends and being outdoors, etcetera. So there's definitely an issue there, so for teenagers as I said, who already are struggling, it can make those mental health issues even worse. But for those who are not, who don't have mental health issues, they can slip into depression because of too much screen time and not enough face-to-face social interaction, inadequate sleep or a mix of all those things.

SC: You had a look at the impact of peer pressure on decision-making in young people. How do smartphones or social media play a role in this issue?

NJ: Yeah, that was actually very interesting research. I looked at some research on MRI scans of adults and teenagers. And, like I was talking before about brain development, those MRI scans showed that the brains reacted very differently to the presence of friends when teenagers were making decisions, and found the teenagers who would not take risks when alone or when they're with an adult, were far more likely to take risks when their friends were watching, and the scans actually showed that that part, that reward, that pleasure-seeking part of the brain became far more active in the presence of their peers.

I actually recently looked at some research that was done on Instagram, teenagers use of Instagram. And they were interviewed and asked about how they could do ‘likes’ and people do ‘likes’, and they comment on Instagram or images and on the social media, and the more ‘likes’ someone has, the more pleasure that person gets out of their posting on whatever platform they're using.

And so that was actually checked with MRI scans. And the more ‘likes’ that these teenagers had when they were looking at images and the scans were being performed, the more active that part of that pleasure-seeking brain waas. So actually they reported it, and they also could see it in the MRI scans. And so it's interesting how that impacts that part physiologically. But it also means that some teenagers will engage in dysfunctional behaviours to gain that peer approval and recognition. And that links a lot to dysfunctional behaviours that they're doing to impress friends. It can be things like cyber bullying, which could be called indirect bullying or relational bullying and cyberbullying, is a relatively new part of bullying. New relatively in terms of it used to be more physical or verbal, and now it's more the online, and teenagers are engaging. Teenagers who usually might not, are engaging in this seeking peer approval, because that's what’s getting their pleasure-seeking part of the brain active and engaging in that sort of behaviour. I actually did some research a few years ago on cyberbullying, on this relational bullying and self esteem, and it actually found that what we call a U curve, where with those who have very low self esteem might engage in it, to seek that peer approval. And those who have very high self esteem might also be more likely to engage in it, purely because they can, because they are overly confident. So you've got both ends in terms of self esteem. So pretty scary stuff

SC: Are boys and girls impacted differently by the use of smartphones or social media?

NJ: The research does say the girls probably use social media twice as much as boys. But what's been interesting in the research is that in the actual increase in the amount of social media usage - for me I was looking at smartphones, through smartphones - was significantly increased for both boys and girls. So although girls, they're using it twice as much, the increase over the years has been significant for both boys and girls, so they're increasing as much. But girls still nevertheless are using it twice as much, so given that, are more likely to be affected by it than boys are.

SC: How much time should teenagers be spending on a smartphone or a tablet each day?

NJ: Wow. How long is a piece of string? There's different research saying different things, and I certainly wouldn't be someone to say a certain amount of time or not. All I know is that I think a balance in whatever they do is really important. I mean, we're in a different world now. You look at teenagers, they're going to be online all day having their school work done using screens, and that has an impact on them. I mean, are we talking about screen time or are we actually talking about being on with social media? It’s really about distinguishing those, and too much screen time, even if they're doing school work, can have impacts because they’re not out in the fresh air and they're not interacting, as I’m saying, face-to-face, live with their peers. So for me, it would be a healthy balance.

SC: Nicky Jacobs, Thank you so much. This was very interesting and also a little bit terrifying, which is not a bad thing for an interview!

NJ: Thank you very much.

SC: Some amazing insight into the neurological changes going on inside of young minds. And I think that clears up quite a few things for those of us that are living with teenagers. Thanks to our guest today, Nicky Jacobs.

That's it for this episode. More information on what we discussed today can be found in the show notes. We’ll be back with a new episode about why even though social media seems like the root of all evil, it might be the best solution, too.

If you like this episode, please write us a review. You'll find that only the five star button works, so don't bother with the others. When you give us a review, it helps other people find the show, and it helps us keep making this podcast.

Susan Carland: Welcome to the next topic in this series of What Happens Next? the podcast. This time we're looking at social media and its potential impact on mental health, especially of young people. We'll hear from a range of experts, from psychologists to social scientists about what's going on in teenage brains and how we can all use social media for good instead of evil.

Nicky Jacobs has a unique insight into the teenage mind and how it's impacted by social media. Her research shows that teenage brains operate differently and are differently impacted by social media. In this episode, we'll talk to Nicky about what happens to the next generation if we don't change how they engage with and use social media, and what's happening inside those brains right now. Let's hear from Nicky.

Unfortunately, due to Covid, we've had to adapt and do a number of these interviews by phone. So while occasionally the audio isn't as great as always, we promise you the content is.

Nicky Jacobs: I’m Nicky Jacobs and I'm an Associate Professor at Monash University in the Faculty of Education. I'm also a clinical and counselling psychologist and I worked with children, teenagers and adolescents.

SC: Nicky Jacobs, welcome to the show and thank you for joining us.

You've done a lot of research on the impact on teenage brains of smartphones. Can you tell us a bit about what you've discovered and whether there's any connection between that research on smartphones and social media?

NJ: I was looking a little bit about teenage brains and understanding the impact of smartphone use on teenage brains, and just to give you a little bit of background in terms of that, it's that understanding that teenage brains are really fully developed till around 24 years old and the very last part of the brain to develop is the frontal lobe, which is that part of the brain that's responsible for our logic, regulating moods, our attention, our ability to reason. But again, that happens around, you know, early twenties. However, around the teenage years, behaviour’s more guided by the limbic system, which is in the part of the brain that’s the centre for our emotional responses. And it's what we actually called the pleasure-seeking part of the brains. And it impacts teenagers ability to, you know, they make assessment about threats, they engage in risk taking, will they, won’t they, and their instincts are very much governed by that.

So, much of teenage behaviour is very much guided by their emotions, which many struggle to regulate just because of their physiological makeup, and most take a long time to actually consider consequences. So they basically make their decision on what feels good. And we also know that 9 in 10 teenagers have a mobile phone and most of them have a smartphone. And we also know that about more than 90% of teenagers, they use the Internet for social networking, be it on their phones or other devices that they use. So now we have more than 90% of teenagers engaged in social media, and we also know that their behaviour is very much guided by their emotions, which they struggle to regulate, and they take a long time to consider consequences because they don't have that regulation. So they basically make decisions on what feels good for them and obviously and naturally this impacts on their decisions and consequential behaviour. And as such, they tend to stay home, they don't see their friends as much in real life as they would previously, and what they do is they tend to document their time when they are out in social gatherings with their phones - they'll take photos, they'll be out with friends and they’re all smiling and taking pictures of themselves. And within a minute it's up on social media, before they’ve walked across the room.

And then you've got those teenagers that are at home watching this and they feel excluded and that definitely affects them.

The G20 did a lot of research in the US on smartphones and the impact on teenagers, and she found, with the use of smartphones that teenagers check their emails several times a day, they spend a lot of time online instead of doing their homework or being with friends and family. And they also develop relationships online that they wouldn't with people that they meet, that they wouldn't necessarily usually do if they were in person. And this actually has a double impact. One is, there are predators out there who target teenagers. But also teenagers are not developing those interpersonal social communication skills that they would, that they do with people in person. Even the way they communicate, they're using a different language - it's all often text based and short abbreviations, and it's impacting on their ability to have those interpersonal relationships and communication skills.

They're also losing interest in activities that they used to find enjoyable before they started getting involved with social media and online access.

The problem for parents - they're often lying about the amount of time that they spend online. They ignore any of the limits that we put on them about their use, become agitated and angry if they're interrupted or not allowed access and become very, very preoccupied with getting back online when they're away from the computer. And it also impacts on their sleep.

SC: Ah, Nicky as a parent of two teenagers, this is horrifying and familiar, I have to say. What are we to do about this? Like what, as parents or people who are concerned about young people, how do we help? It’s interesting, sometimes when I watch my kids and the stuff that they're doing online, whether it be smart phones or anything, you know your iPad or something like that is that it reminds me of the way I see people with Pokies. It seems to have a similar addictive quality, a similar effect on them. It seemed the machines seem to even operate in the same way. Should we be thinking of it in those ways and trying to tackle it like that?

NJ: Okay, I haven't done research, as such, on it, but as a psychologist and for people that I'm aware of who have teenagers who are actually having symptoms that are very similar to other addictions, like you're talking about poker machines and they are reporting those things that I just said - that they can't stop thinking about it when they're not online. It’s this FOMO, that Fear Of Missing Out, that they need to be involved and they’ve got access. Before, if they were going to a social event, they would go along, and if they're invited or if they weren’t invited, they wouldn't even know about this.

Now, what happens is, as I was saying before, within a second it’s up on social media and that child who might have not have ever known about the party in the old traditional ways of invitations and people going and saying ‘Shh don't tell anybody about it’. Now everybody knows, and that child feels like they're missing out, and even though they know it, they're more online checking all the time. Not only what's going on, but also what they might be missing out on, and it has a terrible impact. And like you said, when you're looking at other addictive behaviours, the more they use it, the more they want to use it. And you look at gaming. Forget social media, research that's done on that impact on kids that sit at home, and can get quite aggressive and their mood is definitely impacted, by the research that's been done looking at the relationship between the amount of gaming and the impact on mental health,

SC: So what are, what could we be facing in the future with this generation of young people? If we don't examine and address these issues that young people and smartphones or digital devices or social media, if we don't intervene now? Because again, when I look at my kids, I feel like this is the guinea pig generation. They're the ones who have grown up with smartphones and social media and all those things, and we have no idea the impact that makes on developing brains.

NJ: Absolutely. And when they engage, when teenagers engage in social media, it exposes them to an unrealistic view of other people's lives. And social comparisons and puts pressure on them, and it definitely impacts their mental health, be it their self-esteem, their anxiety, depression. And for those teenagers who already have issues, who are already struggling with depression and anxiety or poor self-image or ADHD, or any of those sorts of disorders, it actually makes it that much worse. You add to that the impact, and I was looking more at smartphones, but what we do know is that sleep-deprivation and poor sleep are also issues of concern because children or teenagers who use a media device right before bed time, which is when many of them do, are more likely to sleep less than they should and they’re more likely to sleep poorly. And this lack of sleep can lead to depression. Or, the phones themselves could be leading to depression because of what they're seeing on the actual social media. And that again leads to lack of sleep. Or there could be other factors, which are causing both depression or sleep deprivation and increases that as well.

So, what the research has shown us, that teenagers who spend more time outdoors and more time with their friends live, in person are 20% more likely to report being happier than their counterparts who spend less time on doing those things. Less time in real-life contact with their friends and being outdoors, etcetera. So there's definitely an issue there, so for teenagers as I said, who already are struggling, it can make those mental health issues even worse. But for those who are not, who don't have mental health issues, they can slip into depression because of too much screen time and not enough face-to-face social interaction, inadequate sleep or a mix of all those things.

SC: You had a look at the impact of peer pressure on decision-making in young people. How do smartphones or social media play a role in this issue?

NJ: Yeah, that was actually very interesting research. I looked at some research on MRI scans of adults and teenagers. And, like I was talking before about brain development, those MRI scans showed that the brains reacted very differently to the presence of friends when teenagers were making decisions, and found the teenagers who would not take risks when alone or when they're with an adult, were far more likely to take risks when their friends were watching, and the scans actually showed that that part, that reward, that pleasure-seeking part of the brain became far more active in the presence of their peers.

I actually recently looked at some research that was done on Instagram, teenagers use of Instagram. And they were interviewed and asked about how they could do ‘likes’ and people do ‘likes’, and they comment on Instagram or images and on the social media, and the more ‘likes’ someone has, the more pleasure that person gets out of their posting on whatever platform they're using.

And so that was actually checked with MRI scans. And the more ‘likes’ that these teenagers had when they were looking at images and the scans were being performed, the more active that part of that pleasure-seeking brain waas. So actually they reported it, and they also could see it in the MRI scans. And so it's interesting how that impacts that part physiologically. But it also means that some teenagers will engage in dysfunctional behaviours to gain that peer approval and recognition. And that links a lot to dysfunctional behaviours that they're doing to impress friends. It can be things like cyber bullying, which could be called indirect bullying or relational bullying and cyberbullying, is a relatively new part of bullying. New relatively in terms of it used to be more physical or verbal, and now it's more the online, and teenagers are engaging. Teenagers who usually might not, are engaging in this seeking peer approval, because that's what’s getting their pleasure-seeking part of the brain active and engaging in that sort of behaviour. I actually did some research a few years ago on cyberbullying, on this relational bullying and self esteem, and it actually found that what we call a U curve, where with those who have very low self esteem might engage in it, to seek that peer approval. And those who have very high self esteem might also be more likely to engage in it, purely because they can, because they are overly confident. So you've got both ends in terms of self esteem. So pretty scary stuff

SC: Are boys and girls impacted differently by the use of smartphones or social media?

NJ: The research does say the girls probably use social media twice as much as boys. But what's been interesting in the research is that in the actual increase in the amount of social media usage - for me I was looking at smartphones, through smartphones - was significantly increased for both boys and girls. So although girls, they're using it twice as much, the increase over the years has been significant for both boys and girls, so they're increasing as much. But girls still nevertheless are using it twice as much, so given that, are more likely to be affected by it than boys are.

SC: How much time should teenagers be spending on a smartphone or a tablet each day?

NJ: Wow. How long is a piece of string? There's different research saying different things, and I certainly wouldn't be someone to say a certain amount of time or not. All I know is that I think a balance in whatever they do is really important. I mean, we're in a different world now. You look at teenagers, they're going to be online all day having their school work done using screens, and that has an impact on them. I mean, are we talking about screen time or are we actually talking about being on with social media? It’s really about distinguishing those, and too much screen time, even if they're doing school work, can have impacts because they’re not out in the fresh air and they're not interacting, as I’m saying, face-to-face, live with their peers. So for me, it would be a healthy balance.

SC: Nicky Jacobs, Thank you so much. This was very interesting and also a little bit terrifying, which is not a bad thing for an interview!

NJ: Thank you very much.

SC: Some amazing insight into the neurological changes going on inside of young minds. And I think that clears up quite a few things for those of us that are living with teenagers. Thanks to our guest today, Nicky Jacobs.

That's it for this episode. More information on what we discussed today can be found in the show notes. We’ll be back with a new episode about why even though social media seems like the root of all evil, it might be the best solution, too.

If you like this episode, please write us a review. You'll find that only the five star button works, so don't bother with the others. When you give us a review, it helps other people find the show, and it helps us keep making this podcast.