‘What Happens Next?’: How Can We Balance Work and Play?

Susan Carland: Welcome back to What Happens Next?, the podcast that examines some of the biggest challenges facing our world and asks the experts, what will happen if we don't change? And what can we do to create a better future? I'm Dr Susan Carland. Keep listening to find out what happens next.

Rob Walker: We think of play as being sort of casual, almost throwaway activity, but it's actually very attention directed and very attention honing.

Margaret Barrett: You don't have to be perfect. In fact, that's not even the point. The point is to play with something, to play with something that you love and to explore.

Mike Rucker: So it's not just about good psychological hygiene, it also has a host of physiological benefits as well.

Susan Carland: I'm your host, Dr Susan Carland, and I'm no fun.

Chances are if you are also an adult, you are not much fun either. It's not our fault. Unfortunately for us, somewhere along the way, we’ve forgotten how to play.

Last week on the show, our guests outlined the negative consequences of neglecting play from decreased creativity to higher rates of burnout. Today, we’re here to prove that play isn't just reserved for kids with boundless energies. We're talking about why it's vital for adults too.

And if you, like me, are wondering how on earth you'll fit a play date into your diary, there's good news. We have expert advice on how to introduce a little silliness into your day between all those grownup responsibilities.

Early childhood educators have known for a long time about the importance of play for developing minds, but did you know it can be used to train the next generation of scientists and engineers?

Dr Marilyn Fleer is a laureate professor in Monash University's Faculty of Education. She's at the helm of a major research project, the Conceptual PlayLab, a living lab that tests groundbreaking play-based models for teaching advanced concepts to young children.

Marilyn, welcome to the podcast.

Marilyn Fleer: Oh, thank you for inviting me in, Susan.

Susan Carland: Tell us a bit about the Conceptual PlayLab. What is it? Why did you create it?

Marilyn Fleer: I guess a way to describe it is it's a living laboratory. Our PlayLlab supports the learning and development of children in the area of STEM. So science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, but with a special focus on girls because we know that governments and communities are worried about women and girls in STEM. And so we are very mindful of that as part of what we do.

Susan Carland: So what are you actually investigating in this living lab?

Marilyn Fleer: Well, we have three pillars of research. Our first pillar focuses on how very young children think and develop their thinking over time. And our research question around that is actually, “Well, what is it that motivates them? And what are the kind of concepts in STEM that are really inspiring for them and help them explain the world?” So that's our first pillar.

Our second pillar does similarly except we're focused on families. What we're really interested in the families is how the family members support their children to have these rich STEM conversations. So in everyday life, what might be the force that they're experiencing when they're pushing their trikes through the sand and then they're cycling across some concrete?

So it's how to talk about everyday life with a STEM focus and to really inspire our next generation of scientists, engineers, technologists, and mathematicians. And the third pillar is about the teachers and the educators, and supporting them to become confident and competent in their teaching of STEM in early childhood settings.

Susan Carland: It's very interesting to hear this because I would've assumed that children are naturally curious and creative, so they wouldn't really need this, that their default cognitive position is one of curiously and creatively engaging with the world around them. But it sounds like from what you are saying, they actually need dedicated guidance in this area.

Marilyn Fleer: I think that what our research is showing us is that children are curious and very capable. What families need, and also in educators and early childhood settings is they need some way in which that they can really support their children to go that little bit further. And so rather than having educators or family members do boring text-based things to teach them.

Susan Carland: Force equals mass times acceleration.

Marilyn Fleer: Exactly, exactly. And go out and buy all this expensive equipment. I think that by giving them this equipment that they're somehow teaching them concepts, our research says that those families are saying, “Oh, we really love this because... We love it because we are learning how we can play with our children and not force-feed them concepts.”

It gives the families and the educators in the early childhood centres a way of really exploring and nurturing this natural curiosity that you were alluding to, Susan. But to do it with a bit more structure in terms of the thinking that they might do. But it's all very play-based. So from the child's perspective, it's just having a great time. Susan Carland: One truly astounding insight to emerge from the PlayLab was seeing just how early children engage in imaginative play.

Marilyn Fleer: One of the sites has a team of teachers who are working with infants and toddlers. So we're talking about 12-month-olds to 18 months old.

And in our interviews with, in this particular case, this example, they said things to us like, “I never thought babies could learn about all these complicated words.” Because they'd been reading the story of ‘March of the Ants’. And in ‘March of the Ants’, of course, there's lots of ants everywhere. And a lovely rhythm to the story.

They said, “Well, we were using words like antenna, mandibles, colony, where the ants live, the chamber, the queen ant, the worker aunt. We were using all these words with these young children.”

And they said, “When some of these children, 12 months later, were in the next room, and we picked up a book and it had an ant in it, they started making the actions of the ant in terms of how they actually use a scissor action to cut leaves as part of eating. So this teacher said, “Well, I started to sing the song of the ‘March of the Ants’.”

[Singing]

Marilyn Fleer: Twelve months later, this child started marching. And so the teacher said, “This is just amazing.” She said, “I knew this was powerful. It knew that I was doing the right thing by introducing all these words, but I didn't realise how meaningful it was that this child, 12 months later, and as a two-year-old, and they were a one-year-old, actually had really embodied and understood aspects of what she was doing.”

And the other really inspiring thing is that a lot of early childhood educators say, “Oh, babies and toddlers, they can't do imaginative play. They just explore objects. They mouth them and they manipulate them, but they don't do imaginary play.”

Well, because this model is all about imagining yourself in the ant world, in this example, on being an ant and exploring as an ant even as young infants and toddlers, and taking food back to the colony to feed the babies, which was one of the problems that arose as part of the investigation of the babies.

These teachers are saying things like, “Well, we see every day these children, these babies doing imaginary play because we've created this beautiful imaginary world and they can do this.” So it's really, really powerful and we’re so excited.

Susan Carland: I bet. And I think what you've realised is time to make things harder for the babies. Forget singing ant songs. I think let's teach them Avogadro's constant and let's get them right into difficult chemistry because I think they can manage it.

Marilyn Fleer: Well, really, it's just exciting to see how such a young mind can embrace, create the right conditions. They embrace this. So it's not just the curiosity. And yes, I agree that we are nurturing that as well, but unless you create those conditions, you don't stretch and give them all the possibilities that could be available to them.

Susan Carland: The benefits of creative play follow children long after nursery school and throughout their development.

Margaret Barrett: Hello, my name is Margaret Barrett. My current role at Monash University is head of the Sir Zelman Cowen School of Music and Performance.

I'm a music educator, a musician, a music researcher, and I'm fascinated by the ways in which we engage with music from the very earliest moments of life through to the end.

Susan Carland: How has music education influenced the creative process in areas such as writing or visual arts? Do you find that being strong or being creative in music can result in greater creativity in other areas? Do they talk to each other, I guess?

Margaret Barrett: If you Google “Why a music education?”, you'll get lots of results saying music improves cognition. Music improves memory. Music improves maths and English and language. As one of my colleagues once said, “I'd love to see the study that demonstrated that maths improves music.” It'd be a nice way to switch that around.

But I think what happens in music engagement for young children where they are encouraged to experiment, they're actually working through a creative process.

Experimental play is with a young child, is playing with materials and ideas. And then from that process, perhaps moving to selecting their favourites and discarding others. And then from that process, thinking about how they might put those materials and ideas together and create a sequence or a pattern. And in that way, they're involved in a creative process built from that experimentation and playfulness.

Susan Carland: And I really agree with you about what you're saying, that the creativity of music can be the endpoint for itself. We shouldn't necessarily say, “Well, I'm doing music because I want to be better at maths or have a better IQ.”

Do you find that when people, children, or adults are active in creating music in whatever way they want without formal rules or structure? Do they seem to report greater creativity in other aspects of their life? Does it seem to be a portal to opening up a creative room in your head, I guess in your brain?

Margaret Barrett: I think it actually opens up a way of thinking and engaging with the world. One of the studies that I've undertaken was in a juvenile justice setting where I was researching the establishment of a music programme in one of those institutions. It was basically a rock music and songwriting programme. What we found from that is that it became a very powerful vehicle for developing what are known as the 5C theory of positive use development.

So to explain it very simply, learning an instrument, the individual develops competence in something. And for some of these young people, they've not been judged competent too much. So they develop a competence. And that competence gives a feeling of confidence, the second C. So that builds that element for them being confident in themselves, they're able to connect with others more effectively.

And particularly in a musical ensemble because that's built into it. You are connecting with others in that environment. That process builds a positive perception of character and the capacity to care. Care for yourself and care for others. So I think there are some very powerful ways in which that engagement with music can help us be human.

Susan Carland: There are examples of the value of play and creative pursuits everywhere we look. But as adults, we still struggle to take fun seriously, prioritising productivity over play time and again. Ironically, we're undermining ourselves.

In last week's episode, we heard organisational psychologist, Dr Mike Rucker, author of The Fun Habit, discuss the consequences of depriving ourselves of fun. Luckily, he has a prescription.

You made that link between being fun-deprived or fun-starved and sleep-deprived or sleep-starved. In the same way that after you have a great sleep, you wake up feeling refreshed and reinvigorated, do you feel the same way after you do these playful things?

Mike Rucker: Yes, absolutely. And there's science to back that up. For anyone that wants to geek out on the science, the principle here is called the Hedonic Flexibility Principle.

And there's been a bunch of amazing studies in this area, but one that I really like, it comes out of MIT, Stanford and Harvard. They looked at 28,000 different participants. I believe they were in France, but they tracked people's behaviour and what they did.

And what they found, and this shouldn't be surprising, is the folks that were just grinding it out, essentially working the entire day and not finding too much time for fun, ultimately looked for, when they had the time, poor ways to escape that discomfort. So things like mindlessly scrolling social media or perhaps things even worse, drinking, things of that nature.

But the folks that did have a true transition ritual and were taking time off the table for themselves were the ones that were showing up the next day with more vigour and vitality to attack the day, were more productive.

And then also, as we already gave a nod to, were the ones that weren't only just more innovative, but also sought out harder challenges because, like your surgeon friend, they weren't so depleted that they were like, “All I want is a nice bed.” Right?

They were the ones that were like, “I've got some vitality, so let's go charge it. Let's go figure it out.” For some folks, that was figuring out what work challenge they wanted to tackle. For others, it was finding harder things outside of their work life. So those are the folks that are climbing mountains or engaging in a spiritual practice and things of that nature.

Susan Carland: Children don't need much encouragement to play. Adults, on the other hand… Frankly, sometimes even the idea of fun just doesn't sound very, well, fun.

So what should we do, if someone is listening to this and they're like, “I can't remember the last time I did anything remotely playful”? What's a nice easy way that they can start that doesn't seem too overwhelming?

Mike Rucker: Yeah, that's fair. I think there's a whole host of different sort of solutions, for lack of a better word, and I think it will be based on your preferences.

For some folks, and I kind of unpack that in the book, The Fun Habit, one of the problems when people say, “Oh, I'm just not fun.” It's because especially, again, I think this holds true in Oceania as much as it holds true in North America, we've been marketed that this ideal of fun, or these high-arousal, very extroverted activities; where, if you look at a general definition of fun just being things that are pleasurable that you're attracted to instead of depleting and things that repel you, then fun can be curled up with a good book, or it can be at a quiet coffee shop with your best friend.

So figuring out what those things are and making sure that they’re scheduled is a really important first step. As simple as that sounds, right? So in behavioural science, we call this pre-commitment, but if we actually put them on our schedule like, “You know what? I haven't had fun in a while, so I'm going to call my fun friend and just make sure that we get something on the calendar.” It can be that easy.

There's also even simpler ways of just reframing your time. This work comes from Dr Cassie Holmes out of UCLA here in the States, but she simply gave people the prime to go into their weekend thinking that it's a vacation. No other instructions or prompts to do anything. Just remember that this is your time for renewal.

She found that that act of mindfulness enabled people to just make better choices because, “Oh yeah, I don't need to grind it out on a Saturday night to do this report. This is meant to be my time.” And sure enough, when people came back Monday for work, they had the vigour and vitality to tackle that challenge.

And study after study has shown that when people do create these transition barriers between work and leisure, that they're actually more productive. So paradoxically they're getting more done. So those people that are worried like, “Well, I just need to finish this and then everything will be okay.” Again, that becomes insidious, right?

Susan Carland: Because there will always be the next thing.

Mike Rucker: That's right.

Susan Carland: What do you do for fun, Mike?

Mike Rucker: I've really been trying to lean into bonding with my kids. I feel like kids are amazing teachers, especially for adults that have forgotten how to have fun. And so we're doing a lot of classes. So I find that really enjoyable because instead of a parent trying to teach their child, where if something goes wrong that it becomes this teachable moment, when I'm taking a cooking class with my daughter, if we both mess up, then we can laugh at each other.

Susan Carland: You're both rubbish.

Mike Rucker: Yeah. And the teacher becomes the villain, right? So we bond because we're in this collective shared experience. There's not a power dynamic or an exchange of wisdom or any sort of architecture where it's not us enjoying something. And so that's been really fun for me.

Susan Carland: Adults, especially the perfectionists amongst us, can be a little nervous about being creative. Here's Margaret again.

What advice would you give to an adult who feels almost frozen in creativity, but does want to get back to that part of themselves?

Margaret Barrett: I'd say it begins in play, and I think so much in music, we focus on the expert endpoint, and that is held up as the singular model of how to be with and in music, that you've got to stay shut up in a room by yourself until you're good enough to go out and be in that expert model. But there are so many music practices around the world where that is not the case.

Susan Carland: What does that look like?

Margaret Barrett: I'm thinking of the Irish community sings in the pub. Everybody is in there and everybody takes a part to the level of their expertise. So you may have some who are taking the lead song. There are others who are taking the beat. There are others who are providing an accompaniment. It may be a rhythmic accompaniment.

But the important thing is everybody is a performer. There is no separation that says, “Oh, we are the performers, you are the audience, so you sit there and be quiet.” Everyone is in there and it's accepted.

So to go back to your question about how do you get started? First of all, cut yourself some slack. You don't have to be perfect. In fact, that's not even the point. The point is to play with something, to play with something that you love and to explore. Find some like-minded people. There are lots of community organisations. There are all sorts of choirs, community ensembles that you can join, and take the risk of exposing yourself.

Susan Carland: There are opportunities to inject a little playfulness into our days all the time if you're paying attention. And Rob Walker, the author of The Art of Noticing and its associated newsletter certainly is.

Many of the activities that you recommend in your book are play-based, and they're often games that we might remember from when we were in school. Do readers find that challenging?

Rob Walker: I think readers are actually really super into it. So as you know, in addition to the book, I have the newsletter that where I threw out recently, and I'm just bringing this up because I recently had an example where I was describing why I was at the airport and I was killing time, and I didn't want to stand there looking at Instagram.

So I made up a game of “Would I wear that T-shirt?”, where I just looked at people walking by, okay? And it's funny because then you see a T-shirt that just says, “Hubby.” And it's like, “Oh my God, who would wear that?”

Susan Carland: Well, that guy.

Rob Walker: And it's fun. I bring it up because you ask about reader reactions, people were really responding to it, and they shared with me their own games that they play in similar situations, which were things like make up... well, so try to deduce the relationship between people, try to guess the profession of someone, things like this. And then someone was like, who they would sleep with. But that's more of an adult game.

But I think people are very receptive to it if you give them permission. I mean, even if you just give them the permission to talk about it, because I think even I could tell in the way you were reacting that these are familiar. We do this, but we feel a little sheepish about it. But it's fun and in a way, it's creative and people-watching is actually a very imaginative and creative endeavour.

Susan Carland: Can you tell us, apart from judging the T-shirts of those around us, how can we integrate more attention-building play into our daily routines?

Rob Walker: So this is something that comes up a lot and what I've been thinking about lately. And this is another thing that came from something that a reader wrote to me, about how she had gotten sick of walking her dog, basically, because the dog would take forever to sniff everything, and it was just boring, and it's the same neighbourhood and blah blah blah.

But she learned to back off and really take those moments, the most annoying moments. Here was the key to it is like, “Take the most annoying moment, the most drippy part of your day, the most dredgey thing, and challenge yourself to: What is the game that I can invent that will lighten this, the worst thing?”

So it's a double game. So the first part of the game is what is the most boring, useless part of your day? And it could be the dishes. It could be… we've all got our drudge task.

And so challenge yourself as you would as a child. I mean, I certainly did. And I remember – I was thinking about, because of this, I was thinking about how as a kid, I used to have to do like mowing the lawn and things like this, and I would narrate in my head as if a sportscaster… like, as if I was in the Olympics of lawn mowing. “Walker’s turning the corner, it's a great technique.” So, you know.

Susan Carland: “We've never seen grass cut so low.”

Rob Walker: Yeah. “I've never seen it. It's incredible. It could be a world record. This could be history, folks.” So it's a double game there. So that's my advice on that, is identify the most ridiculously boring part of your day and figure out a game that could lighten it 10 per cent.

Susan Carland: What I love about what you're saying, Rob, is that so often mindfulness, it's described as a practice, and that can be quite tedious. It's something you have to work on. But you seem to frame mindfulness and attention in a very playful and fun way. It doesn't have to be about two hours of silent zen meditation, but it's actually quite creative and joyful.

Rob Walker: I'm aware of this, but in a sort of indirect way. And I backed into mindfulness and meditation and ideas like that.

I do think that what I'm advocating does overlap and maybe serve as an entryway for people today, but I can't claim that that was my intent. I got started on this more having to do with just winning the attention war and fending off attacks on you. So very more straightforward, day-to-day thing, kind of cross-matched with artistic creativity and where inspiration comes from, because I strongly believe that noticing things that other people overlook is the beginning of creativity.

And that indirectly led to certain games of just sitting in silence for a certain amount of time and counting how many things you can hear. That turned out to really overlook... In the process of researching stuff like that, I started to come up against, or to encounter, mindfulness as a concept, meditation as a practice.

I mean, as an outsider, it did seem to me that it seemed a little... It sounded intimidating. I had experimented with meditation before and it just seemed like, “Wow, this is really hard.” Which I guess it is, to do it well, but that's the wrong message to send. You want it to feel approachable.

I don't make any claims to this, but I hope that people who encounter the work that I'm doing, some of them... Because I do sight meditation and mindfulness work, that it will lead in that direction for some people. A gateway drug, I guess.

Susan Carland: I was going to say exactly the same thing.

Rob Walker: Yeah.

Susan Carland: Rob, thank you so much for your time today, and I would definitely wear your shirt.

Rob Walker: Okay. Thank you.

Susan Carland: Whether you're singing off-key in the car, goofing around in a fun new class, or simply telling yourself a silly story about the couple at the next table over, embracing play just may be the secret ingredient to a little more balance in your life.

Thank you for joining What Happens Next? for our series on play. Thank you as well to all our guests on this series, Professor Margaret S Barrett, Laureate Professor Marilyn Fleer, Dr Xavier Ho, Dr Mike Rucker and Rob Walker. Visit our show notes for a link to Rob's newsletter, more information about Mike's book and additional information about all our guests' fascinating work.

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